Frances Hargraves

BG: I think this is interesting, and a lot of it is theoretical. So I want to go back to Lincoln High School and more of your memories of Lincoln High School. What the teachers were like, what the students were like. The sports, and the band, the chorus. Anything else you remember from Lincoln High.

FH: I call it enjoyable years, taking in the total picture. I felt that we performed well. We had the same problems that any school of our size would have. We seemed to handle them well. There was a lot of respect from students to their teachers. And we in tum tried to be fair with our students. It was more a family feeling. You know, cohesiveness. You're working for the same cause, you're educating children. You want this to be the best school, with students doing the best that they can. You had that feeling. And I was very proud of those kids, I really was. I was proud of all they did. ( ) sports, or what not, but in academic achievement, they seemed to be growing. The kids were very respectful, very respectful. I had that good feeling. I enjoyed those years. I was in elementary. I taught fourth, fifth, and sixth grade. And I really enjoyed teaching.

BG: Do you have any idea of the percentage of students who graduated from Lincoln and went on to college?

FH: I wish I did. I think the percentage was maybe pretty high. You had-you know it's costly to go to college. I had children who had great potential. I even talked to one about it. I said, "You just have all the potential of being a wondetful teacher because you were my aid when I had the sixth grade." And you know what she told me? She said, "Miss Hargraves, I wanted to go to school, too, but I don't have the money." I've had at least two or three tell me-[tape ends].

FH: --just ( ). But it's like I said, they didn't have that kind of money. It's sad, but it happens. It happens with children in all walks of life, they just don't have that money.

BG: So that was a factor for a certain percentage of the black students, that they couldn't go on for more education because of the ( )?

FH: That's right. I wish it was ( ). But in my experience I have had many students who had high potential of being successful but didn't have the funds to continue their education. But you had a pretty good percentage who did go. Some might not have stayed the four years, and some--now that the technical schools have come in-you have a large influx of children going to those now. That's a plus for children who want to excel. In fact, it's hard to get any other type of job. Things are pretty tight now. You've got to have a handle on your pot!

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BG: Did the community or the teachers at Lincoln do anything to help the students get into colleges or support them while they were in college? students.

FH: I'm glad you said that. I know of some cases where they financially supported some of them

BG: The teachers?

FH: Yes!

BG: On their small salary?

FH: That's right. They tried so hard. I really know that of some cases where they did. All teachers encouraged children to continue their education. That's just a part of our feelings about it. High school is fine. It just opens the door for you to get into a higher education, to do something else. If it's just technical school, you know, something that you can put your finger on, that you like to do, that is going to give you a decent salary. I know that all of the teachers that I know are one hundred percent behind their students to continue their education. But we're very much aware that it's not free anymore. The finance side holds a lot of children from continuing--. You're finding black organizations as well as white organizations-I belong to both kinds, predominantly for blacks and predominantly for whites. We are trying to help children. We give scholarships. There's not one organization that I belong to that we don't that. So we're all reaching out or trying to help those students who ( ) on to continue. And we're just as proud of them when they come back and tell us how successful they're doing. It gives us the zip to go on to help other children. Our problem is we can't help as many as we would like to. So we try to encourage any group, any member, anyone, to support a child. And I do that. I support, individually, I support students who are going for their education. Some of them are in the family, and some are outside the family. I might contribute to a church club child.

BG: What was the feeling about Lincoln High School when it was moved to Merritt Mill Road in 1951? How did the community relate to the school?

FH: Wonderful, wonderful! Good heavens, you had everything: space, better school, more equipment. All of it was just wonderful. Very accepting of moving to a new building. You go into a building and you see what's over there--. They were very pleased with the spaciousness and the equipment and everything at Lincoln High School. Now, my daughter complained because she had to walk. You had to be in a certain radius before you could ride the bus. But I know she walked.

BG: She walked from here? What is that, a mile and a half?

FH: Whatever it is, she walked it.

BG: Right past the white school.

FH: There you are, exactly. But being young, they have strong legs. They had the feeling, you owned this, this is ours. Something to be proud of, this is our school. And I don't think they even at that time thought too much about desegregating. That was in the '50s, that's true. But they weren't hip to that. They had school pride, very strong. The kids really were very proud: they were proud of their band, they were proud of their program, they were proud of the athletes, of the athletic department. They really had school pride. Students seemed to be doing much. Along with the parents, they had a lot of support from them. And other agencies, too. You always want to see your children doing well, and you're open to being a part of it.

FH: at that time it was hard to find qualified teachers. That's why they sent me. I was the first teacher in Orange County to be certified to teach special education. So I ran a lot of workshops. And when I came back, UNC, this university up here sent students to me to train.

BG: In teaching learning disabilities? Attention deficit disorders, dyslexia?

FH: All of it. Right. So for eighteen years-I stayed in it twenty years-for eighteen years I had teachers in my room. Even as far as Greensboro, Durham, training teachers. A lot of people ask me about charter schools. The first thing I say is charter schools take in a wide range. But I have worked with children with trainable children. I've worked with children who have behavior disorders. I've worked even with exceptional, talented children. I've worked with three or four different kinds. I say the charter schools, some of them are really on the right track. But what is needed most is well-trained teachers. You've got to know what you 're doing, what approaches.

BG: I wish we had time to go into that a little more and maybe we will ( ).

FH: Right. You have more now than you ever had. People are going in all specialties. Just like doctors.

BG: I wanted to get on and talk about Lincoln High School. I know you didn't teach there. But I also know that you were in teaching, that you were in the community ( ). And so you must have some impressions about what Lincoln High School was, the teachers there, the attitudes there. I wonder if you could just take off and talk about Lincoln High School.

FH: I was at Lincoln High School for ten years.

BG: You were?

FH: Yes. I was with Mr. McDougle. Mr. McDougle and Mr. Peace.

BG: Mr. Peace was the principal at Northside?

FH: Yes. The building itself. I was in that building. I taught with Mr. McDougle in 4th to 6th grade. Mr. McDougle was a good disciplinarian. What had happened before Mr. McDougle came, there was a lot of looseness, of students roaming around in the streets, trying to imitate, I guess, the college people. The behavior problems, kids seemed to be out of tune. When they hired Mr. McDougle, he had an overall picture of just what had happened. What they needed: more restrictions of students leaving, or students getting down to the work. When he came in as principal some students might have had the idea, since they had all that looseness, that he was really very strict.

FH: I guess I was just like any other youngster. I was more concerned about the neighborhood and being accepted by my peers and also my relatives. Just being a part of what was going on, and playing games, and going to school like any child would at that period. You must remember I was born in 1914. So things are very different now than it was when I was a child. Even so far as the town and how people think and what was going on. There's quite a difference there. I definitely remember my first going to school. I was too young to enter the public school. My mother thought she might get me in but they told her that I wouldn't be able to go. So I went to sort of a kindergarten-it wasn't called a kindergarten-Miss Carrie's school was on Robinson Street. Now they call it Roberson Street. She took in children who were four. five years old and then she had summer classes. My experience there was very rewarding, and I was more ready to go into the public schools when I was six years old. And of all the teachers that I remember, I remember my first grade teacher, so it was quite an experience for me. And of course the school was located on Merritt Mill Road. The primary building was off from the main building. And they were all wooden frame buildings but, being a child, and just enjoying the experience, I didn't think about the building or what was taught. But it was wonderful. And I seemed to be very happy in that setting.

BG: What was the name of that school?

FH: It was called Hackney School, as far as I can remember. Of course, when the school was destroyed by fire several years later, we moved into different buildings, churches, and a Masonic lodge. Even a theater, just anywhere that we could get space. I was very sad-I was just around nine years old, I guess-I was very sad because I missed the conveniences that we had at school. And I can't even remember having any recess space. We were very crowded. But we went on with our lessons. It was still a learning situation. But it was very dreary, the two years that we were there. Later, we moved in 1924 to what we now call Northside. It was called Orange County Training School.

BG: Where did the black community get the land to build Orange County Training School, and who paid for the building?

FH: As I understand, the Stroud family gave some of the land and I think they bought some from other people. It was very hilly. It wasn't smoothed down. And there were no roads to it. We had to climb hills from every area wherever you lived, and I guess trampling over the grounds over the years just made, what you might call a cow path to school. But we were just so pleased and happy to get that space after being cramped up for two years that it was just going into Glory Land, literally speaking. And being young children, you had more space to play and to have fun.

"I remember my mother always told me, 'Whatever job you must do, be sure you give it your best.' She said if it’s sweeping the floor, washing dishes, anything, do it your best. And as I grew, that was her philosophy - always give it your best. And I still carry that philosophy."

- Frances Hargraves

In this interview, Frances Hargraves discusses growing up in Chapel Hill, her family, and her community. Mrs. Hargraves attended and taught at multiple schools, and she comments on Orange County Training School, Chapel Hill High School, Lincoln High School, and North Carolina Central University. She described how she grew up and the experiences she had at her schools and town. She also talks about her life during her marriage and after having kids. At this time, she was taking special education courses and continued talking about teaching and training in special education. The interview ended with a discussion about the integration of schools and Lincoln High School.

This interview is part of an oral history project called Southern Communities: Listening for a Change: Mighty Tigers--Oral Histories of Chapel Hill's Lincoln High School. The interviewes were conducted from 2000-2001, by Bob Gilgor, with former teachers, staff, and students from Chapel Hill, N.C.'s Lincoln High School, the historically black secondary school that closed in 1962 when a school desegregation plan was implemented. Interviewees discuss African American life and race relations in Chapel Hill, as well as education, discipline, extracurricular activities, and high school social life before and after integration.

This interview is part of a group of interviews conducted by Susan Simone exploring the lives and struggle of various members of the Northside community: a historically black and primarily residential neighborhood located immediately northwest of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and downtown Chapel Hill, NC. The community has long been involved in a struggle to prevent developers from buying up property to build new and expensive housing developments that would break up the black community and drive low-income residents out of Chapel Hill, as Northside contains the majority of the remaining low-income housing in the city.