Charlene Smith

RG: What is it that, what are the contributions that your mother made that allowed a school to be named after her?

CS: Just the longevity of teaching in this community as long she did.

RG: 1932 till —

CS: What was it, I know they had taught over 60-some years in this particular community together, when you look at their years together. So you're talking 30- plus years on both parts. That's a lot of years to give to one community.

RG: You bet. Now if she was teaching during integration, which was '66, so she had to teach for at least 34 years.

CS: Right.

RG: That's a nice track record.

CS: Right. It is, a very long time. In the same place. So, and most of the students had gone to her at one time in elementary school, whether it would have been fourth grade, sixth grade, or fifth grade, so those same students would have had some kind of experience with her prior to them getting into high school.

RG: Do you remember - 1 know you were off to college when your father left Lincoln and went to the integrated Chapel Hill High School. But you must have come home for breaks and then summertime. Can you recall discussions or observations about your father at that time?

CS: I just know my feeling was that when it had to occur, I didn't think it was fair, I didn't like it. I'm sure he had to have felt some adjustment, and some sadness, where he had been the boss for years and years and years, and making do with being that other schools might not have had to make to. And then when there's an opportunity to be in a new facility, and he had more experience than his female counterpart, for that decision to be made, it had to be a hurtful one. There's no way it could not be.

RG: Did he voice that to you or to your mother?

CS: Not really, but I think you would just know that it was something he wished had not happened.

RG: I hear comments from other people I've interviewed, like they watched Mr. MacDougal, Principal MacDougal wither away.

CS: Uh huh. Well, I don't know if he was withering away, but he clearly was in an adjustment. And it wasn't a pleasant adjustment. It was a sad adjustment. Because it was not fair. It really should not have been, but it was.

RG: Who made that decision? Do you know?

CS: I guess the Board. The board of Education.

RG: Did he have a chance to argue it?

CS: I don't know. I don't remember that happening.

RG: Now, at the high school, the core curriculum teachers were all white. And there were a few black teachers there who were teaching shop, typing; Miss Battle taught French, Miss Pope taught Home Economics -

CS: Home Ec, right.

RG: And did your father or mother ever discuss that aspect of the integration?

CS: I don't know if they would discuss it, but clearly we all were aware that it was a difference from being at Lincoln and being at Chapel Hill High. And the people who were at Chapel Hill High were the people who had been at Lincoln. There was a difference. But now like I say, I didn't experience a lot of that, because I didn't attend Chapel Hill High. So I don't really know how that was. I would think that it would have to have been a difficult thing, not only for my dad, but for the teachers who did move into that facility, and for the students who moved in also. Because they didn't have their own place any more.

RG: Do you remember any of the history of that time?

CS: Well I know there was, I mean, integration was a struggle for everybody, everywhere you went. Again, I did not have to deal with that aspect, because I also went to a black school. Hampton University. So again, I did not have to deal with that element as much, until later.

RG: So your dad stayed on at the new high school for just a couple of years?

CS: And then - yes, and then transferred to being the director of adult education.

RG: Was he happier in that role?

CS: He was happiest at being principal of Lincoln. OK? (laughs) Nothing else could match, you know. Chapel Hill High was a new building, whatever, that could not match being the principal of Lincoln. Being a director of adult education, that could not match being the principal of Lincoln. And the effects that he had and the students that he was involved with.

RG: Was it difficult for you at the high school, with your dad as principal?

CS: Probably, yeah, (laughter) Eyes always on me.

RG: Eyes always on you.

CS: Yeah.

RG: Did you think you got special treatment, or tougher treatment, or the same as everybody else?

CS: I didn't get special treatment. And I don't see it being any tougher, but nothing was given to me, put it that way.

RG: You feel you earned it.

CS: Yeah. Yeah.

RG: There's a statement about your father that everybody has said: You got to school and you were late, he said "Too late for today, and too early for tomorrow."

CS: True.

RG: That's true.

CS: That's very true. That's true. And he was one that was not a tardy person, so most of the time you did arrive on time. Wherever you went you were on time. You were not late. So we grew up with that. We were not late for events or activities. We were on time.

RG: Did he bring home any of his work? His concerns for the school, for the teachers? Did he discuss it at home, that you recall?

CS: No. I just know that Lincoln was important to him, and students succeeding was very important, and making sure that Lincoln provided to the students the very, very best, that was important to him.

RG: Was there much of a turnover in teachers?

CS: No. I can remember the same teachers at Lincoln from when I started till when I finished. So there wasn't a lot of movement.

RG: Did your dad choose the teachers?

CS: Oh I'm sure he did. I'm sure he had to interview most of them, and bring most of them aboard. And then once they were there, they stayed. They didn't leave.

RG: Some people have said that your dad had eyes in the back of his head. Is that true?

CS: He probably did. (laughter) He knew what people were doing, and I think that's probably true, yes.

RG: That he walked the hallways.

CS: Yes.

RG: You didn't mess around in the hallways.

CS: No. No. Again, it was serious business, school. And that's what he expected of students, that's what students knew they had to be about. That's the same kind of thing teachers - it was serious business there. Yes, you had a good time and it was fun and we had other areas that we enjoyed doing, but when you came to school, serious business. No goofin' around. You were respectful to each other and you were respectful to the adults.

RG: Did he stand at the door most mornings to greet students?

CS: Yes. Yes. I think he did, yes.

RG: And did he know their names?

CS: Oh, yes, everybody's name.

RG: Knew everybody's name.

CS: Uh huh, you knew their parents names. So it wasn't like you were coming to a strange place. People knew who you were, and they knew who your parents were, and maybe your parents would be called or contacted. So there was really that partnership that you talk about it in today's schools, between the school and the family and the child.

RG: Did teachers make visits to the homes of the students?

CS: I would think that, if there was a need, yes.

RG: But you don't remember specific policy -

CS: No.

RG: With your father saying that teachers are going to visit each student's home.

CS: I don't remember that. But that doesn't mean it didn't happen. I don't know.

RG: Are there other memories that you have of your father as principal?

CS: I think the biggest one is that he had high expectations for students. And wanted students to be successful, and to be successful in the world of work, which also meant having appropriate behaviors that would make them successful whenever they left Lincoln. And in turn, students had that, and that did give them a level of success, whether it was in the academic arena or whether it was in the world of work or whether it was in sports or whatever, that you carried yourself in a certain way, because it was reflected on who you were and the school and you wanted to do well. That was a given, it was a given.

RG: Well, let's graduate from Northside - not Orange County Training School - and go on to Lincoln. I may repeat some of the same kinds of questions, but I want to understand what you remember about the characteristics of the teachers at Lincoln.

CS: The characteristics that I remember of - the majority of those teachers were teachers with high expectations of students. And making sure that students had information, new information. There was always a sense of respect, that the teachers gave to students, and in turn students returned that to the teachers. The teachers had a business, and you felt that their business was education, and educating students. That was their business. As in every building there was the teachers that some students would always want to have, who went that extra mile, did interesting things in the classroom, and then of course, as in any building, there would be one or two teachers who would not be as strong. But there was always a feeling that whatever the teacher taught, they were really giving it their best. And they knew their subject area or their specialty.

RG: Did the teachers get further education? Do you know anything about their credentials, and their continuing education?

CS: My assumption would be that all of the teachers, or the majority of the teachers had masters', because that was an important requirement for persons in education, and for blacks in education at that time. So all of them would have had some kind of advanced training.

RG: Did they keep up along the way? Did they have other classes or summer updates that they had to attend? That's tough because you were a student then.

CS: Right, I was a student, and I don't really know how their summers were and all that. My assumption is that it was just a given that teachers had masters;, that was just a given. And it would probably be very few who did not have that.

RG: What about counseling at the school? Who did the counseling? If you had a personal problem -

CS: The teachers.

RG: They didn't have a counselor for counseling; the teachers were the counselors.

CS: From what I can remember, yes.

RG: Were there particular teachers who were known to be sensitive to counseling, and that the students went to?

CS: I don't know if there were certain ones that students went to. However, in a particular class, most of the time you were, you related to the teacher, whichever grade that might have been. So the teacher would just take care of the students in that particular grade. If there was a problem or an issue that a student would have. But no guidance counselors or special to us that way. The teachers were there for the students.

RG: Are there any other memories of your childhood that stand out in your mind?

CS: No, I think you just kind of accept things as they are, and you don't question them or really see the value until you move on to another stage. Then you can see the importance of what you did have, and what we had, students don't get now as easily. And there's something missing for many of the kids in schools now, compared to when I was growing up. When I attended Lincoln, there were black role models around me everywhere. And you don't look upon that until you get older, and you don't have that. Whether it was always having a black teacher, having a black custodian, having a black principal who directed the way the school was going. Black cafeteria workers. It was black people around you, which you always had a sense of family, and a sense of community. A sense of safety, and a sense of security. Which our students don't have at the present time.

RG: What was it like going to Orange County Training School?

CS: I didn't go to Orange County Training School.

RG: You went to Northside.

CS: I went to Northside, in elementary school.

RG: Oh, I don't want to make you that old, but - excuse me. (laughter)

CS: I mean, I'm old, but no, but I went to Northside.

RG: OK. I promise I won't ask what you weigh.

CS: Promise? Good.

RG: OK, so you went to Northside. Tell me what it was like at Northside.

CS: It was my school. Again, I was with peers that I knew, neighbors that I knew. Again, the same type of thing when I think back. I had black teachers, so that I was very comfortable in my school setting. One of the things I do remember as mom had mentioned, when he did have the operettas or our musical program, you worked hard at being good at whatever you did, and you were always really good at it, and the teachers were very clear in what they expected of you. They expected you to give your best, and to be your best. And they worked at it until you did do that. I had excellent teachers, very caring teachers.

RG: When you say they were very caring, what is it that makes you say that? What memories do you have that tell you that your teachers were caring?

CS: I think it was the time that they were willing to give. Whether it was helping you with your penmanship or whether it was helping you on a concept, or whether it was a special project that you had to have. They appeared to be there, giving more than just the regular time. That they encouraged you to keep trying to do something until you were successful. They really cared about you.

RG: What if you were a slow learner?

CS: They would still work with you until you mastered a particular thing.

RG: Did you see a difference in the way they treated those who were intellectually outstanding and those who were slower?

CS: No. Everybody was expected to succeed, so if you needed additional time, they made sure that you put in that extra time. But there was not a difference between the children who were maybe less challenged than the others. Everybody was expected to succeed, and if you didn't, that was ok, people still worked with you until you were able to do that.

“What we had students don’t get now as easily. There’s something missing now for many of the kids…when I attended Lincoln there were Black role models around me everywhere…there were Black people around you, which you always had a sense of family, and a sense of community, a sense of safety, and a sense of security, which our students don’t have at the present time.”

- Charlene Smith

This interview is part of an oral history project called Southern Communities: Listening for a Change: Mighty Tigers--Oral HIstories of Chapel Hill's Lincoln High School. Charlene Smith is the daughter of Lucille and Charles McDougle, who were both educators in Chapel Hill. Smith recalls the strong sense of community within Northside Elementary and the surrounding areas. She also reminisces on her participation with the First Baptist Church, and how church was an important part of her life. She talks about the experience of attending a school in which her father was the principle. Smith discusses the high expectations of the school, while also fostering a nurturing school environment for the students and teachers. She talks about her participation in glee club and the marching band, and the pride that the community held in the marching band. She also discusses the impact of integration on her father’s job, as he was transferred to a school outside the Northside community and did not like his transfer. She discussed the negative aspects of integration felt by teachers who felt they were no longer as supported by their school.