Clementine Self

The interview was conducted on the porch of Joe’s home, a wonderful venue for an interview about home and community, although maybe not ideal for sound quality. There was significant wind at times and the sound of the cars passing by on the street. The interview begins with Joe’s stories of how he came to Graham Street, then navigates back to earlier years of his life on the farm. Significant time was given to his experiences in WWII. The interview then turned to discussion about the construction of homes, early years in the area post-war, reflections on work and family life, and elements of pride in the journey to this point. Clementine joined for parts of the narrative, chiming in with questions and stories, especially related to her part in the local Civil Rights struggle.

Clementine Self (CS): I didn’t feel...

Bob Gilgor (BG): Did your grades change between Lincoln and Chapel Hill High?

CS: Um, in Math and French.

BG: But the other classes stayed about the same. So you didn’t feel fearful about raising your hand in class and offering an answer to a question?

CS: Not really. The class that was more intimidating was that social studies class, and it was how that particular teacher made me feel. You know, I always felt like I was being ignored by her, and sometimes, I would raise my hand just to see if she [would] call on me. Sometimes, rarely, did she.

BG: Did the teachers, most of the teachers, some of the teachers, none of the teachers, have eye contact with you?

CS: Hard to remember.

BG: It’s not something that sticks out in your mind?

CS: No. My English classes and my math classes, I felt that my teachers were really involved, very open. And those were the classes, even in my business class, I felt that they were.

BG: In ‘63, when we went to Chapel Hill High for the first time, how many African Americans do you think were at the school there?

CS: No more than five. You mean that were?

BG: That were there with you?

CS: Oh, that went with me. Oh, I don’t know. There were several that went with me.

BG: I know you said that you were a group of eight or nine?

CS: Our eight went out of my class, but I don’t…there were a lot of kids behind me that went, and I don’t have a clue how many it was.

BG: So the year before, they were already there?

CS: No, we all went the same year.

BG: So ‘63, you think?

CS: A big group went in ‘63. A huge group, because there were a lot of younger [students]. There were more younger people who went than with the eight of us.

BG: So they went to the junior high, then? If they were younger than you.

CS: Well. Well, they would’ve been in ninth grade, that’s right. You’re right. So there wouldn’t have been any in the high school part. We were the only ones in the high school part. The eight of us. I keep forgetting whether they were together in junior and high school. I keep putting ninth grade with the high school. That has changed.

BG: Are there other things that stand out in your mind about the differences between Chapel Hill High and Lincoln?

CS: The kids at Chapel Hill High drove cars. At Lincoln, I don’t think anybody had a car. They all…this thing with cars has always been their thing. And probably, if the truth were told, there is not a whole lot of difference between the present Chapel Hill High and the Chapel Hill High of the 60s.

BG: You think things are desegregated but not integrated?

CS: If the real truth were told?

BG: Well, that's what we’re trying to tell.

CS: Because there will be a few kids where there's a mix. A real integration, but my own children went through Chapel Hill High. And there's never been, well, my oldest son was semi-segregated because he went to elementary school mostly in Durham. But most of their school career has been totally integrated or de-segregated, but neither one of them, ever, they had friends they played sports with, but they never really got into being involved with the white community. Neither one of them. I mean, by them playing sports, you would think they would have. They would always come home. Their main friends were other African American guys.

“I was going for my education, I was really going to make a statement that I’ve integrated this school–or desegregated, it was never integrated–desegregated the school. That was my goal.”

- Clementine Self

Clementine Self is a former student of Lincoln High School in Chapel Hill, NC. She discusses the challenges of transferring to the newly desegregated Chapel Hill High in 1963. Self grew up in a working class family that prioritized education. While Lincoln High School was strict with behavior and dress code violations, had many kind teachers, and offered a place for Self to express herself through marching band and school assemblies, she discusses the more lax attitudes and, at times, prejudiced teachers at Chapel Hill High. Self stresses that the school was desegregated, not integrated. In addition to detailing her high school career, Self expands on the importance of education during her childhood and the low rates of crime and drugs present in Northside during the 1960s.

This interview is part of an oral history project called Southern Communities: Listening for a Change: Mighty Tigers--Oral Histories of Chapel Hill's Lincoln High School. The interviewes were conducted from 2000-2001, by Bob Gilgor, with former teachers, staff, and students from Chapel Hill, N.C.'s Lincoln High School, the historically black secondary school that closed in 1962 when a school desegregation plan was implemented. Interviewees discuss African American life and race relations in Chapel Hill, as well as education, discipline, extracurricular activities, and high school social life before and after integration.