Clarke Egerton

RG: Can you tell me about the teachers, your impression about the teachers at Lincoln High School? And - I' II just leave it at that.

CE: Oh, I think they had a good set of quality teachers. I was impressed with the teaching staff that was there. I don't want to call any names, but I know you've probably heard. You've already heard me speak about Bradshaw, and of course R.D. Smith. And Miss Pope, I think, was quite influential. She was the Home Economics teacher. Very particular about everything. She really helped those students, I know. And helped me also, because she was the one that told me about Metropolitan Life Insurance. And I think about that time, blacks couldn't get the kind of insurance that I got. And she said yes Metropolitan, and probably opening the door, because you probably have heard of the fact that the insurance company had two sets of books, that they would sell insurance to blacks on one book and insurance to whites on another book, because blacks didn't live as long because of the kind of work that they had to do and so forth, they weren't expected to live as long. So they had different sets of books, and some insurance policies you just weren't able to get. But she told me about some things and I followed through on them, some about savings bonds and I followed through on that. And when I got married it really paid off. Of course now, you know, I'm pretty comfortable, and it came from the insurance. The insurance policy pays dividends, you see. That meant a lot, because back then blacks weren't able to get that kind of insurance. They were paying a little, 15 or 20 cents a week or whatever it cost. And whatever it came up to, just about, this'll be a hundred-dollar policy, and that was all you got.

RG: Did the principal have an influence on the school?

CE: McDougle - he was ... ok guy. He was great. Mr. McDougle was ... very strict, wanted discipline in that school. And he got that. He got a lot of respect. As a matter of fact, he has a school named for him over in Chapel Hill, so he paid his dues there, did a good job. I was able to work with him without any problems. The only problem I had was when I told him that I was going to leave. He just told me in no uncertain words that I knew that I was going to leave. I told him, "No, I didn't [plan to leave]." The job came available and I said, "Well I'm going to take it." (laughter) But that was only one of the things that I remember about Mr. McDougle. The other one was when I went to Chapel Hill for the first time. We had to do lesson plans, and I had a home room, you had to do the register and all this type of thing. But I had learned at my first job, because we were called suitcase teachers, to make out two sets of lesson plans. So on Friday afternoon, I would have a set of lesson plans for the next week on my desk, in detail. And I'd carry another set of lesson plans to Mr. McDougle for him to keep.

RG: Is that what every teacher did?

CE: Haven't gotten to that yet.

RG: Oh. Excuse me.

CE: So when I gave that to him, he said "Well, yeah!" And I said, "well I have a copy on my desk.” That's what I was used to. Then he made all the teachers do that, and they said "Why did you do that!" (laughter)

RG: You were the bad guy, huh?

CE: I was the bad guy. They were on my case because I had them doing extra work. But that was one of the things that I got from J. Estees Byers, and I passed it along to Mr. McDougle, and he followed through. And it's good, in a way, because sometimes getting subs is much more difficult now than it was back then, but even then, sometimes a sub would be come in late, a person might be out of place or something like that. The lesson plan's right there on the desk, so when you walk in you're ready to go.

RG: So did they continue that for the five years that you were there?

CE: Oh yes. (laughs)

RG: Lesson plans every Friday to the principal? Right on the desk.

CE: Yep. On the desk.

RG: That's pretty disciplined.

CE: And when I detailed my lesson plans, being' a band director and so forth, I would always have a little note there that whoever was in my place could call on this particular student to help you and this student knows how to check the roll for you. Nobody would be called, and say they were there and they weren't there, because this student could be trusted.

RG: You know I hear so many people comment to me about how wonderful the marching band was. And you've touched a little bit on moving the instruments, maybe high stepping. Can you describe a little bit more what a parade was like for the Lincoln High School marching band?

CE: Oh that was the top that was the top of the thing. If there was going to be a parade, you could expect to have a good turnout. They used to say oh, they're gonna show out. I never did like that term so much, they're gonna show out. But they did use that. And it was a chance for the students to say "Look mom, what I can do." And it gave them so much pride to be in a marching band, and everybody's just alike, all step together. We played music together, and it's just a wonderful skill. I just get goose bumps just thinking' about it right now, the way the crowds would just cheer us on, and especially when we got up there by Fowler's, where the Christmas Parade went. Just one parade - two parades: Homecoming Parade and Christmas Parade. Get up there at Fowler's Food Store and all of the white students from the university would come down to see the Lincoln band and they would just cheer us on. And the students just enjoyed that. And the band would step high, and play, and they enjoyed the discipline. I'm a real funny guy and we can have all the fun in the world, but they knew when it came time for the marching band or the concert band, I was a different person. I had two personalities. Time to get this job done. There was no fooling' around. And they accepted that discipline, and even today, when I retired in '97, I still had that same discipline. Students were wearing caps in the halls and wearing their pants slouching, but not in my band. Everything changed once you hit that door, and of course I'm happy that I'm out now, because maybe somebody would have challenged me, but, (laughs) but they didn't. And it lasted for 41 years, so I kept that same rules. I found that things seemed to work much better when the student knows you mean business. James Scott Farron or whatever, that thing that comes on the television, (laughs), I meant business, and they know that. So they enjoyed it because we had good results by doing' it that way.

RG: Did you, along the parade routes, stop and do any dance steps or any kind of routines?

CE: That was the highlight. Sure! (laughs)

RG: What were they like?

CE: Great. I mean, whatever was popular during that time, I would try to score some music for them. But, 20 measures or so, or whatever was popular during that time. I wouldn't want to ask ASCAP to come after me, but you could get a record. Get a record and listen to it and sketch out a little something for your band, and they would play the latest thing. And everybody enjoyed it, and the majorettes would make up the little dance steps. Of course in my early years I guess I was making' up some of them. But as time went on naturally I couldn't keep up. But they'd make up the little dance steps and we would stop and perform, and that was a highlight. They really enjoyed that.

RG: Did any of the children trail along behind the band and try to copy what they were doing?

CE: Ah, yes. (laughs) I guess you heard that. I've been known to be the pied piper of music, because once the Lincoln band would come along, they would sort of follow along toward the end. I loved it. I enjoyed that, and I always marched with the band. A lot of my colleagues said "You don't march with the band." I said "Oh yes I do." I 'm right there, because I wanted to be sure that everything is going to be like J would like for it to be. You'd have to keep some of the public from coming out and bothering the girls. You know, your majorettes, you have your pretty girls out there, stepping and, they want to come out and make a date or something, but naturally I was up there and I wouldn't allow that.

RG: Did you feel that the students gained more than a musical education from being in the band?

CE: Oh certainly. There are so many lessons to be learned being in the band situation, because you work together as a family, and so many of those students that I taught actually looked to me as their dad. Later it was Big Daddy, and then I guess it was Little Daddy because I was much smaller than I am now. (laughter) But then a lot of the parents would come to me and say, Mr. Egerton, talk to little Johnny or talk to little Mary Jane - I won't call any names - because they have so much respect for you. They just love you and so forth, and they're not doing well in their subjects at all, but they love the band. Lots of times I had to be the middle person there to get little Johnny back on track. Make sure that he's gin' to his classes and so forth, and getting the education that his mom wanted him to have. And there were some cases, I guess you've found out, that there may not have been a daddy, a father at home. So I played the role of that father frequently for many of those students. I'm sure they got a lot out of it. Many years later, you know, you may hear some come back and say, you did so much for me, and how much they enjoyed the program, and what it meant to them. Even though some of them were not in the band, they were also under my tutelage for social studies and my social studies class, which was small, that first part, first semester I think it was. But during that time, I didn't just teach social studies. I came back to Durham and I bought a little can of fried baby bees. I also bought a bar of chocolate covered ants, and escargot or something. I've forgotten now, it was one other thing that we got, but we didn't get to that. But I carried that back and introduced it to the students, and we opened that can of fried baby bees, and started a little taste thing there, and the students just loved it. I mean, they'd Ooh! They didn't enjoy it at first, so naturally I was going to be the guinea pig, so I tried one of those fried baby bees (laughs). It had a nut-like quality. But I went ahead tried it, and then some of the others tried it, and that second semester my classes were running over with students because I was doing something different. It wasn't just writing in the book. We ventured out and did things a little differently. Naturally it got back to the principal. He says, "What's this about fried baby bees (laughter) in your classroom?" I said, "Well you know, in many countries, they do that. I mean, this is a staple." So they really enjoyed that. And the same way with the band, we didn't always do things like the white high school band. We lifted the instruments and had them looking' a little flashy for marching. Did little steps and things, which the crowd always appreciated. And yet and still, at the end of the marching season, we were able to go in and take the same music that the white high school was using for concerts, we could take that music and also play it, even though we had some inferior equipment. I was able to make adjustments. I remember once entering the band into a contest, and it called for French Horns. I didn't have any French Horns; we had what they call mellophones. So any time I found something that mentioned music or instrumental music, I read it to them. And I found out that you could get an adapter for this mellophone that you could put a French Horn mouthpiece in, and get that French Horn quality of sound. You know, I took two of those mellophones, got the adapter, of course this one was coming out of my pocket, and the French Horn mouthpiece, and worked with those students on that. When we went to contest, the judges said, "Nice French horns." Those are mellophones. (laughter) The judges were just so impressed, they said "Oh, good French horn sound." I said "Ok, right." They were playing the French horn part using the French horn mouthpiece, but it was actually E-flat mellophones that they were using.

RG: Fascinating.

CE: Oh yes.

CE: And there again, even with the band that I was working with, again I had the safety patrol, and I had a homeroom, and then they had the Maydays, which you are responsible for. And I was also the junior class advisor, which means that I had to be responsible for getting the junior prom together. So I really enjoyed that experience. I have a schedule somewhere, but I wasn't able to locate it. It was a tight schedule. In addition to the commute from Durham to Chapel Hill, which at that time I think we called it nine miles. Now I don't know what it is. And it was only 11 miles and it didn't take you long to get there. Now it takes you almost 45 minutes [laughs] to go just that distance.

RG: What time did you get to work in the morning?

CE: I was always early. I'm an early bird now. I was there about 7:30.

RG: And home at what time?

CE: 5:30-6:00.

RG: Let's go back to the band. I'm interested in what you know about the history of the band. When it started, who started it, how the children learned the music.

CE: I'm not sure about the history of the Lincoln band. I can't back any further than I can remember, than Jasper Bell, J.Y. Bell. I know that they were a small group, not that large. I also know that he believed in the same thing that I believed in. Marching is great, but concert band is just better. And we did a lot of our work in the concert band, as well as the marching band. Marching band you'd get the public, more of the public involved in the marching band. And for your satisfaction, you'd have those kids in there, when marching season is over, you'd say we're going to play something nice, some Bach, Tchaikowsky, some things like that. Which they really enjoyed. Once they get into it, they may shuffle their feet a little bit at the start, and then as we make a little progress, they say "this is great."

RG: Who taught the children how to play their instruments?

CE: I would. During the time I was there, you had your beginner program, which fell to the band director. So you actually get to start the kids on their instrument, and then bring them along through to the high school, which I was able to do for four years, five years.

RG: So did you go back to Northside Elementary, and teach there?

CE: I don't know whether it was called Northside at that - maybe it was. Yes. Yes I did. That was what I did three times a week. I'm not sure how that schedule worked. But yes, I did that.

RG: So you graduated North Carolina College in -

CE: '55. '56.

RG: '55. '56. And then you were at John R. Hawkins High School?

CE: Warrenton - it was John R. Hawkins High School, it was called John R. Hawkins, in Warrenton, North Carolina. And that year was my first year doing band. So I had the band, safety patrol, boy scouts, and bus duty. I also taught two classes of music, and three classes of social studies. And at the time when we had lunch, activity period, they called it that's when I would have to do the instrumental repair on instruments. They had a nice repair kit there. But there was no money for instrumental repair, and no money for music. So any music that I got, I either bought it or wrote it out instruments, and myself that we repaired, I did it myself, or worked it into a class situation. My principal, J.Estees Byers said: "That's a music class. Teach your way." So I did that. We did a lot of music, but we also did some instrumental repair, so I could have a band functioning properly.

RG: And then what year did you come to Lincoln?

CE: That was the following year. I was just one year at John R. Hawkins, and then it was five years at Lincoln High School.

RG: Starting 19 -

CE: '56, '57.

RG: To '61?

CE: Yes.

RG: When you were at North Carolina College, now North Carolina Central University, and how many instruments did you learn how to play?

CE: In order to major in music, to finish in instrumental music as I did, you had to learn all of them. And I was very fortunate when I attended North Carolina Central; I was pretty good on the drums, clarinet, oboe, and saxophone. And so when I started at North Carolina College I already had those instruments pretty much mastered. Then I started with the bassoon, and then the string instruments of course being the most problem, but I enjoyed those also. (laughs)

RG: That's incredible. Well, I want to focus on Lincoln.

CE: Surely.

RG: So let me just ask you a broad question. Tell me your memories of Lincoln High School.

CE: Oh, it was a wonderful experience, because I consider that to be my first, best job. My first job was at Hawkins, but the real challenge was at Lincoln High School. I was fortunate to be able to go there after my student teaching. Now when I was at North Carolina College I did student teaching, in Chapel Hill, under J.Y. Bell. He was the band director there. In between the time I went to Warrenton and taught there for a year, the job at Lincoln High School was available. J.Y. Bell called me and asked me if l wanted it and I said yes. You know where Warrenton is, it's off the beaten track, and the principal knew it. He said, "I know you're a suitcase teacher, so you have to have two sets of lesson plans. You may not come back." But anyway, (laughs), I was able to go back to Lincoln High School and actually teach some of the students that remembered me as a student teacher there from a year ago, two years ago. And so I had two classes there that I could relate to. So I got off to a real good start with those students. And they were just fantastic. Anything that I said we should do, they said we can do it. And that's what I enjoyed most about them, and they had so little. We had to repair instruments. You know, $45, I think, was my entire budget. I thought that was something, considering that my other school didn't have anything. [laughs]

RG: Was that a repair budget or -

CE: That was the budget. That included music, repair, and anything else that you were going to do. And so I had to use that wisely. So we had to depend quite a bit on gifts of instruments from the community. Fundraising. All of those things were incorporated.

"It was a chance for the students to say “look mom what I can do” and it gave them so much pride to be in a marching band, and everybody was just delightful. We all stepped together, we played music together, and it’s just a wonderful feeling. I just get goosebumps thinking about it right now.

- Clarke Egerton

This interview is part of an oral history project called Southern Communities: Listening for a Change: Mighty Tigers--Oral Histories of Chapel Hill's Lincoln High School. Clarke Egerton grew up in Durham, North Carolina where he went to Hillside High school and got his introduction to music. He took piano lessons and learned to play the clarinet, while also performing in their marching band. During high school, Egerton had a part-time job transporting x-rays to and from hospitals in Durham. After he graduated high school, he studied music at NC College, which is now NC Central University, and graduated in 1956. He got his first teaching job at John R. Hawkins in Warrington, NC, where he taught band and social studies. At John R. Hawkins there was no budget for the music classes, so Egerton created all the music himself or paid for it from his own pocket. After a one year at Hawkins, Egerton got a job at Lincoln High School where he student taught at during college. While there, he taught social studies, band, was in charge of the safety patrol, and also went to Northside Elementary 2-3 times a week to teach the students to play instruments. Egerton was in charge of the marching band at Lincoln High School, and he held an incredible amount of pride in that. Egerton recalls the logistics of being in charge of the marching band, from getting uniforms to creating the step routines. The community around Lincoln High School also adored the marching band, and they played in many parades. Egerton recalls how the students in the marching band were role models for children in the community. Lastly, Egerton recalls some frequent activities at Lincoln High school, like creating lesson plans, school assemblies, and asking the sports coach to scout the other teams marching bands too.