Betty King

RG: Do you have any idea when you graduated, how many went on to get a college degree or started college?

BK: Most of them that finished school went on.

RG: Went on to college?

BK: To college, yes. And a lot of them left Chapel Hill because there was no future for them in Chapel Hill. The only thing you could do in Chapel Hill was to work at the university, which you made nothin', you know. And the only way to make any money, you had to leave Chapel Hill. With the education that a lot of 'em went to college, never came back to Chapel Hill to live. Now there's always been a closeness with the people in Chapel Hill. And that's where the reunion that you're talkin' about, we had it, we first started it, my class was the one that started that reunion. And first we were havin' it every five years, and then it, so many people started dying now, so we started, now we have it every three years. And, but we were always, always very close, but then a lot of them left because they wanted jobs, better jobs, and there was nothing in Chapel Hill.

RG: So the young black person who got a college degree had to leave to find work? Is that a fair statement?

BK: No, they didn't have to find work, they just did not come back to Chapel Hill. Everybody didn't feel about Chapel Hill like I feel about Chapel Hill, but when they left they didn't come back. Now a lot of 'em are comin' back now, as they retire they're comin' back..??..

RG: Let's say I was black and I graduated from Lincoln, and I went to North Carolina Central and I got a chemistry degree. Or A&T.

BK: Then you had to go somewhere where they could use you.

RG: They couldn't use you here.

BK: Not in Chapel Hill, no.

RG: Was that because I was black?

BK: Nine times out of ten it was because you were black.

RG: When did they change the name Orange County Training School to Northside and Lincoln.

BK: When they built Lincoln. No. They changed Orange County Training School, I think, I'm not really sure, I think about 1949, 48-49, somewhere along there. And that was because the parents - we had some parents that really were political. The name Training School sounded like it was some kind of training, not a school

RG: Reform school maybe?

BK: Yeah, something like that. And so, when the kids go out to - 1 didn't play sports, I was in the band, but I never played basketball, something like that, but the kids would go out, people would tease us about the name of the school. And so the parents got together, they wanted that Training taken out of that Training School. And so that's when they changed it, somewhere about 48-49, somewhere along there they changed it to Lincoln High School.

RG: And Northside? Or the whole school was Lincoln?

BK: The whole school was Lincoln. See because as I said the plan was from 1 to 12 grade. Now when it became Northside was when Lincoln was built. And the first graduating class at Lincoln was 52.

RG: So the school opened in the fall of 51, and they graduate in the spring of 52.

BK: 52, yeah. And that's when Northside became an elementary school. That became an elementary school. Lincoln was from 7th , or 6th . And that's when Northside got its name.

RG: And when did you start at the new Lincoln High School, what grade were you in then? 7th?

BK: I was in the second class.

RG: So were you there when it opened in 51?

BK: Yeah.

RG: You were in 10th , or 9th grade then?

BK: No, I was in 11th grade when it opened.

RG: Oh that's right, What was Lincoln High School like? Was Mr. MacDougal principal when it opened?

BK: Yes.What was it like? I would say, it was not that much different, I mean, the same people were there that you knew before. I met new people and stuff, so it was somewhat similar. Same thing. Not as many people but you know, you knew everybody, you knew all the teachers. We never had - things that always bothered me, we never had lockers. It was dangerous for the people who had to come around the curve. It's not as steep now, but if you know the curve that you come around on Merrit Mill Road, if you come around there, I think somebody got killed, maybe he didn't, and they kept try in to, I remember in PTA they always tried to get the state or the town or somebody to put sidewalks up so kids could have somewhere to walk instead of walkin' in the street.

RG: So you had to walk in the street to school?

BK: Sure did. Unless you went through the woods like we did. We knew short-cuts. But you had to walk in the street. And that was the one thing that really really really bothered me. I was working in a summer program and when they decided - I don't know if you remember it - when they decided to make the school I went to, that was Lincoln, to make it an all six grade school - no thin' but sixth graders were there, from all over, went to that school -

RG: 65-66. When they merged the two schools.

BK: Yeah. Somewhere along there. I don't think it lasted but a year or two at the most that it was an all sixth grade school. But if you had - 1 had gone to school there - out of school, teaching at Lincoln. I had been teaching. And there was never any improvement. Same stuff. The year that they decided to make it an all sixth grade, you should have seen the pavement goin' down. You should have seen the lockers goin' out in the hall. Heretofore they couldn't do it. But when all the kids came down there for sixth grade -

RG: White and black.

BK: White and black. The lockers went up, the pavement went out. So I mean, you know, that was - of course I let the school board know my feelings - but that's what happened. And I mean I felt very strong about that.

RG: Do you still remember your teachers from Orange County Training School?

BK: I remember, not back too far. I just went to one of them's funeral. She passed. Ruth Hope, I went to her funeral. One teacher, Miss Eziel ? Smith. She was my teacher. There's another one that's still alive and lives in Creedmoor, Miss Rogers, who was a ?? I guess I remember just about every one of my teachers.

RG: Did you feel that they were your friend or that they were for you?

BK: They were my friends. They were for me. They helped me. They were always just like, to me, they were like another set of parents. They would help me. I knew, that was my inspiration, I knew I wanted to teach.

RG: When did you find out you wanted to teach?

BK: I think I always kind of had it in the back of my head, but I guess it was when I was, really determined I was gonna teach was a teacher named Miss Davis..?..She's still alive. She was pretty and young. I wouldn't tell anybody she taught me. But she's still, she's in - down east. They gave her an award in Raleigh, and we all went over there. But she came, and she was an inspiration to me, she just was really someone I wanted to be like.

RG: What was the relationship of your parents with the teachers?

BK: Like a business relationship, I mean, it was not, it was like a business relationship. They didn't socialize. They knew them. My principal, who lived on the same street that I lived on, they were friends. That was the MacDougals, you know the MacDougals? They lived right down the street from me. They still were friends like a next door neighbor.

RG: What about their relationship with the teacher, say, when you would have parent-teacher meetings? Did they ever go to the school to have those meetings, or were they always at home?

BK: The only time that I can remember my - 1 can't even remember my father ever going. It was understood that when you went to school, that you had one purpose goin' and that was to learn, and they didn't want to hear anything that you misbehaved in school, and if they did, what you had to deal with, is that if you misbehaved in school and the teachers got in touch with the parents, then you would get it double - you'd get it in the school, then you get it at home.

BK: Yeah. And see then, I knew what, got my first taste of segregation mainly was when I started school.

RG: Which school?

BK: It was Orange County Training School at that time. And that's over there where Northside is now. Same building. OK. The white school was where the Town Hall of Carrboro is. And that was right, no place where I lived. But I could go to that school. That's when I first, our friendships, the kids we played with, I guess because we didn't have that much in common any more, goin' to different schools, and so, that was when I got my first, because I couldn't understand why I couldn't go to school with the other people. I didn't understand it but, so I guess when I was six years old was when it happened.

RG: What was it like in Orange County Training School, what are your memories of the school there?

BK: I just enjoyed it. It was just a plan that was from the 1st to the 12th grade - I think it was, when I first started, I think it was 1st to 11th grade. See I didn't know much about the high school because the high school part was on the other end. But I think it was from the 1st to the 11th grade. I think it was like in - I don't know when it was that they added the 12' grade to the school. And I think that was one reason we knew everybody because everybody went to the same school. You knew everybody.

RG: Did you know the teachers?

BK: Oh yeah. RG: Where did the teachers live?

BK: The teachers lived, they had, most of the men had boarding houses. There were boarding houses around, people that kept the teachers, different places. And at that time, you had to live where you taught.

RG: Did they go to the same church?

BK: They went to church, but on the weekends they could go home, wherever home was. Yeah, they could go to the same church.

RG: Did they socialize with the parents in the community?

BK: Not really, no.

RG: Did teachers make visits to your home?

BK: Yes, even when I started teaching, we used to. RG: What was the purpose of that? BK: To see what the family was like, to get close to the family, just to make a connection. To let - this is a child and we both share it. And they would talk about the needs of the child and all. Just to get a closeness I guess, to the child, so the child would feel that he was cared for. I'll tell you one thing, I think that when the teachers stopped having to live in the town, and stopped visiting, I think that started to become a strain, you know, it wasn't the closeness any more. Because you didn't know each other. When you have the teacher visiting, the parents begin to get a little idea what that person's all about. I think when they stopped doing that, I think that started - they weren't as close. But then there got to be so many people it was impossible to visit all your students. And that was done mostly in elementary school anyway, not high school. RG: Can you tell me more about Orange County Training School? BK: Orange County Training School, you would not know it now, which is Northside - we had a pile of rocks, I don't know where the rocks came from, I never understood that. But on one side one of the kids had fallen.. .?..there was just rocks everyplace, and we played on those rocks. And we, I don't know, I just enjoyed school. I didn't miss days out of school.